The Battle For The Centre.

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jakell
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The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:48 am

I'm going to present a spectrum of current political trends, I say "trends" because I'm talking of recent stuff rather than ideologies that have a longish history, that said, these groups can be understood in relation to those ideologies.
A spectrum is crude and one-dimensional, which is probably why someone came up with the poitical compass. The compass makes us feel a bit better about ourselves as thinking beings, and is a nice toy in times of political stability, but in times of change the spectrum comes to the fore, probably because it gels with our binary evolutionary hardware that enables us to distinguish between us and them, where the 'positions' were limited to the quick and the dead (or, less dramatically, the hungry and the fed)
I think we're in a time of change, maybe even an unprecedented one as the internet has convinced many people that there is no ground any more, that we are almost transhuman and that all previous bets are off. I think such floaters will be in for a rude awakening, but for now things are still in flux so here a nice crude spectrum:


|----Neo-Nazis
|----
|--- Alt-Right (Broader than is commonly assumed
|---
|--- Alt-lite (deserves its own topic)
|---
|--- THE ELUSIVE CENTRE
|---
|--- The 'Skeptic Community'
|---
|--- SJW's
|---
|--- Hard Left, eg Antifa and associated cults such as BAMN
|---
|--- ???!!!


The crudeness is helpful in some ways, it reminds us that the above is merely symbolic (like a very low resolution image) and we are not tempted to conflate the map with the territory.
The last here is deliberately left as a query, people can fill in the gap if they wish. It's partly to illustrate a common cognitive fallacy - that there is an equal and opposite position to everything. There's nothing wrong with this assumption except when it gets used for lazy dismissal - an example could be how Sargon Of Akkad (for instance) dismisses the Alt-Right as rightist SJW's which sounds an alarm to me indicating an over-convenient encapsualtion, ie it's too glib. I believe that we're all are guilty of this at times anyway, it comes back to that hardwired binary preference again, an awareness of it helps us to get past it.

The outliers above are not what I want to discuss on this thread, although they are are good subjects for other threads. What I want to discuss is that mysterious centre, and for now I'm going to try to focus on the 'Skeptic community'. Apologies for going slow here, a lot of this has involved watching and digesting a lot of lengthy podcasts and livestreams, and this has (positively I believe) affected my own approach.

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greycircle
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by greycircle » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:27 am

|----Neo-Nazis
|----
|--- Alt-Right (Broader than is commonly assumed
|---
|--- Alt-lite (deserves its own topic)
|---
|--- THE ELUSIVE CENTRE
|---
|--- The 'Skeptic Community'
|---
|--- SJW's
|---
|--- Hard Left, eg Antifa and associated cults such as BAMN
|---
|--- ???!!! SATANISTS
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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:00 am

Even though Satan is perceived as a hokey-jokey boogeyman, he comes from the Christian mythos so I would defer to Christians in getting to grips with the archetype, their take may be coloured a bit too much by Satanic panic hyperbole, but he is still theirs and I tend to take religion a lot more seriously nowadays.

Removing as much froth and hyperbole as possible, Satan is fairly consistently viewed as approaching us in the modern world from the Left, and I note that Communism has been the most fervent in attempting to remove any vestiges of religion (which has turned out to be mainly Christianity), seemingly to replace it with it's own secular religion. The secularism/atheism of the centre/Right on the other hand has been more a more subtle matter of personal choice.
Satan is a good fit there too, moving contemplation away from a transcendent realm to one where Man is God, ie Humanism. I note there is at least one Christian here (D&C), hopefully he won't feel the need to edit himself so much here as at the old place.

So when I feel the urge to regard Satanism as a joke, I tend to do a double take and consider the extent to which this may be an excellently conditioned response, as the saying goes : "the finest trick of the devil is to persuade you that he does not exist". I don't really take 'atheistic Satanism' seriously and regard that as Levey's manouevre to get a few more bums-on-seats (note to Americans, this does not refer to tramps).

This said, Satanism doesn't really fit in there, but Communism does, and it's worth considering the sycnronicities that arise in mentioning them. The archetypal approach is best left to such as Jordan Peterson, who would probably make a 2+ hour long lecture from this alone.
Last edited by jakell on Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

BigEyeTenor
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by BigEyeTenor » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:40 am

Labels. More labels.

Why do we feel this weird need to label everything?

Oh wait, I know, if our label someone, you ALREADY KNOW HOW THEY THINK. You don't have to actually listen to them or think about what they're saying.

Fuck labels.

But this is America where people are identified by brands.

I'm about done with humanity and everything else.

People are being herded into extinction. And I'm starting to think if they're stupid enough to let that happen, they deserve it.

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:14 am

BigEyeTenor wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:40 am
Labels. More labels.

Why do we feel this weird need to label everything? ..
Well, l don't know about others (we?), but I do it to get to grips with things. That done, secondary steps usually have to be made, one of which you (sort of) described, another step might be to banish them.
People tend to be good at evoking, but not so good at banishing.

Satan got evoked here, and the above is my attempt at banishing him, this thread would be a good destination for him. Communism has also been evoked, but I (pre-emptively) banished that too, in the first post, ie I put aside the extremes in favour of the centre. (This American spellchecker is really grinding its gears over me)

And so, safely on to the 'skeptics' (who have conveniently already labeled themselves)...
Last edited by jakell on Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

dusty
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by dusty » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:38 am

thesis/antithesis clash in front of cameras over -isms at events specifically designed to make the television watching "normie" side with the state and its hired thugs (the center?)

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:51 am

Hopefully those looking in here have for a while been observing something beyond the television watching "normie" realm. In the last year though we've seen a surge in alternative media that has put the legacy media (Styxhexenhammer666's term) well on the back foot. Thanks for the nudge towards my intended topic here
It even makes Alex Jones type Juggernauts look a bit clay footed.

It will be interesting to see how Youtube/Google's recent moves to counter this pan out. They are substantial but I think it is too late, we're talking about a hydra now.

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Harvey
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by Harvey » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:28 am

Image
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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:37 am

Yes, it's small, which is why I discussed relative significance in the OP. To dwell on it too much though would be to over-stress the importance of 'bigness', so I'm pleased to have put that one aside.

(anyone see a subtle irony in the above image?)

dusty
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by dusty » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:46 pm

some disjointed shower thoughts, mostly inane, some perhaps nonsensical. no matter how much i try to consciously rebel escape the left/right dialectic my thinking is still rooted in it...

- Both "sides" seem to agree that we are approaching a cataclysm of sorts, yet they disagree on the appropriate labels to give this phenomenon. Has society become so fragmented that coherence is impossible?

- Labels in US politics never made much sense to me, shouldn't fiscally conservative mean the exact opposite of what it's used to signify? Multinational corporations are "Marxist" because they adorn their social media pages with LGBT rainbows and provide suicide prevention nets for their sweatshop workers?

- Are professional YouTubers bringing the country back from the brink of insanity by constantly bashing dysphoric/sexually confused/traumatized college students? The new mainstream seems even dumber, and more dishonest, than its predecessor.

- Is the "alt-right" succeeding in pushing "the overton window" to the far right (or from their position: dragging it back somewhat from the extreme left)... are they mainstreaming white nationalism, or drawing those with legitimate grievances into easily discredited positions with imagery that spooks "the normies"... the system is set up so that all dissent benefits the status quo regardless of intentions?

- Why would an implicitly fascist America want to openly embrace or rehabilitate language/symbols of a vilified past? Ignore the surveillance state the real fascists are over there --->

- As Trump's failings and the mirage of MAGA becomes apparent, is it inevitable that those in the "alt-lite" adopt more explicitly Nazi positions? Ignoring the boomer patriots who will blindly support anything he does, regardless of the fact that they'd no doubt bash a Democrat president for doing the same things, the millennials will find a lot of answers further to the right, many with brackets around them. The Nazi position appears more open to system-questioning, but supplies only scapegoats...replace SJWs with ethnic groups as the system rot.

- I feel that the "red-brown" phenomenon is important...esp regarding the trajectory of post 9/11 alt-media... I don't know

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C_D
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by C_D » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:09 pm

In the States, it's become us or them. The centrists (including those that do not give a shit) will have to make a binary decision, with either choice in no way reflecting their diversity of opinion. The extremists of the left have become the extremists of the right and the maintainance of equilibrium demands increasing sacrifice from each side, as the exponential curve begins its inexorable climb. Such is the start of civil war where brother kills brother - and their children bear arms against one another. Collectively, America has willed this into existence - and only they can undo it, but the hatred of self-reflection and zeal of exceptionalism is deeply ingrained.

One day, in a far flung future, this parable may frighten impressionable children to a restless and dreamless sleep.

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by greycircle » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:19 pm

I just used the label "satanists" as a handy identifier. The word means different things to different people.

The Saturn Cult is very real. It pervades the government like the vermin that it is. It is the pedophile cult that sodomizes children as one of the methods to train "assets" to become disposable robots. It is the force behind the Pizzagate pedophile rings uncovered daily in this internet jungle we live in.

I have been watching it operate (from afar) for many, many years. Call it evil, call it satanism, call it whatever, but it exists. It is MK Ultra, it is known by many labels.

It hides under the banner of being "ultra leftist" which is why I put it as far left as it would go on your chart. The U.S. government is infested with it as they train their "national assets" to be couriers, assassins, slaves of all types, spies, sex slaves, drug mules, and other types of disposable humans they need.

This is why the "other forum" won't tolerate pizzagate to be discussed without bullying people out of the forum for mentioning it. They gatekeep for it.
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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:30 pm

dusty wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:46 pm

- Are professional YouTubers bringing the country back from the brink of insanity by constantly bashing dysphoric/sexually confused/traumatized college students? The new mainstream seems even dumber, and more dishonest, than its predecessor.
It seems that these professional Youtubers you speak of here coincide with those who have become labeled the 'skeptic community', but those confused college kids that you quite accurately identify were not victims (although victimhood was their bread and butter) but were a pretty powerful force managing to cow fairly powerful institutions and create the sort of mayhem that shut things down, the extreme behaviour that shut down Milo's Berkeley event, and the tense and rather frightening situation at Evergreen (Lord of the Flies?) were products of this.
Most commentators seemed unwilling to take a position on this behaviour as if there were no limits, but those college students should really be grateful for those who did as it has prevented them from entering a collective spiral of Madness that leads God knows where (a Manson type figure might have some pointers for them). As I've said elsewhere, we have probably reached peak-SJW and now are on a gentle downslope to something else, I will probably be watching the skeptics as they have been good documenters of this.

I'm not sure if we have such a thing as 'a new mainstream' yet, it's probably a way off, if it ever arrives. Google/Youtube's attempt at automating the removal of 'undesirable content' will certainly make waves, but rather than remove undesirables, I think it will have a decentralising effect and prevent those 'professional youtubers' who wish to remain edgy from getting so big as to be considered mainstream.

batipsto
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by batipsto » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:01 am

Hope the irony of pizzagate and trump inducing a "dissociative split" in "these" forums ain't lost on nobody here.

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:34 am

batipsto wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:01 am
Hope the irony of pizzagate and trump inducing a "dissociative split" in "these" forums ain't lost on nobody here.
I think that a lot of you here have got it wrong about this being a cause, about Trump especially. Trump is the theme of the present firework display, interwoven with some (startlingly non-ironic) Russia stuff, but you might as well have blamed the Nazis* for the previous show.

This said, I can't easily speculate on an actual cause other that stuff rushing in to fill a vacuum, my instinct is to leave it alone.


*Actually, it seems these are recently being introduced by a back door.

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C_D
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by C_D » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:41 am

batipsto wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:01 am
Hope the irony of pizzagate and trump inducing a "dissociative split" in "these" forums ain't lost on nobody here.
irony is my very favourite thing. :-)

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by Pauli137 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:10 pm

jakell wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:34 am
batipsto wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:01 am
Hope the irony of pizzagate and trump inducing a "dissociative split" in "these" forums ain't lost on nobody here.
I think that a lot of you here have got it wrong about this being a cause, about Trump especially. Trump is the theme of the present firework display, interwoven with some (startlingly non-ironic) Russia stuff, but you might as well have blamed the Nazis* for the previous show.

This said, I can't easily speculate on an actual cause other that stuff rushing in to fill a vacuum, my instinct is to leave it alone.
I do think Trump was the cause of the "dissociative split" in the forum-that-shall-not-be-mentioned, and also some of the subreddits in which I participate. But in terms of the wider culture, Trump is merely the symptom of a fault-line that has existed for years if not decades. Anybody with sufficient insight could have predicted Trump in the waning years of the Obama administration, when the SJW phenomenon exploded into its full insanity.
As I've said elsewhere, we have probably reached peak-SJW and now are on a gentle downslope to something else ...
I don't know... I think we've reached a bifurcation point.

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:03 pm

Above I speculated on who the next SJW's will be, or rather what the old SJW's will do that is so open to the easy ridicule of such as Sargon and Milo.
Listening to Mr Helium here has given me a clue:



Lionel does tend to use some very convoluted sentences, but I like him nonetheless, it's often possible to see where he's going before he gets there himself. The 'monumental stupidity' here seems to be a 'safer' SJW activity where emotions are expended on objects rather than people, objects tend not to react in a way that makes one look dumb, they dutifully fall apart in a predictable fashion and don't complain.
I think Lionel is being a little wishful though. He seems to think that this sort of behaviour, if it continues, will be the undoing of the vandals by making them look stupid. The trouble is that, as the bar for stupidity moves lower and lower, that perception may never happen as almost any object can be imbued with shades of microaggession and be scheduled for demolition.

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gods+lonely=man
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by gods+lonely=man » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:58 am

It will be interesting to see what the new object of justice will be once the identity politics jump the shark and people on both sides don't care because of demands being meet or the inane nature of such issues in light of the real problems facing the world today.

Would they get the same level of mainstream press for demanding the end to slave labor in asia by corporations that make the fancy products(android phones=google)so ingrained in our society?Would google stop linking to companies that didn't meet these demands?

Maybe instead of demonizing all Trump supporters(i am not one by any means),they tried to see the causes for people who once voted for Obama to vote for such wild card.You would think the left with a higher percentage of educated members could grasp that many americans are feeling left behind and especially by a party that once defended them. Painting all Trump voters as racist was the worse thing they could do to regain their confidence but yet they did and continue to.

This is a year old thought that i shared with a very left friend about BLM.So caught up in the sjw ideal,it was sort of lost on him.

This movement will be gone by next year.Instead of a dealing with the real problems facing black americans today,it has pigeonholed it's self with issues that are largely finite compared to the ones that are being overlooked.Yes it is criminal what the police did to Eric Garner but why is no one asking why he was having to sell loose cigarettes to support his family.Police killing black men is a very small problem compared to the genocide of black men killing black men.Where are the protest for cuts in school programs like arts and meals,sports players that beat thier wives/girlfriends,hip hop muscians/role models that are mysogenists and glorify violence/murder(by drugs or otherwise) against other black people.Why not set an example by protesting a R Kelly concert to show that Sexual Abuse against black women or in his case young black girls is unacceptable.How come most black youths know who Snoop Dog is but not,Langston Hughes or Zora Neal Hurston.If you want respect as a people,you have to respect yourself and others.There was a points in time that this existed for african americans but was lost.Todays generation could have never accomplished what the civil rights generation did.This may have happened because of the intentional distruction of the black family unit by mass inarceration of men(fathers) or the underfunding of schools and reverse class mobility of the welfare system cycle.Yes black lives matter but quality of black lives is being unaddressed.When there is a deathwish in your community conscious or not,something is terrible wrong.Bell Hooks-There is no life to be found in violence. Every act of violence brings us closer to death. Whether it's the mundane violence we do to our bodies by overeating toxic food or drink or the extreme violence of child abuse, domestic warfare, life-threatening poverty, addiction, or state terrorism.

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:05 am

I first came across Lionel above because he did an interview with someone I follow, Styxhexenhammer666, which seemed a quite unlikely pairing. One thing they do have in common though is that they do mostly unscripted monologues to camera and have the depth of knowledge to carry this off.

Here Styx is regarding the present post-Charlottesville focus on Nazis-under-the-bed as the latest in a line of 'moral panics', drawing on ongoing Trump hysteria as fuel, the previous Trump/Russia business was a slight return of the old Reds-under-the-bed panic and has possibly dried up for now because a lot of people saw that for what it was.
It remains to be seen how long this 'Nazi' one will run for (longevity is probably a good measure of whether it can be regarded as a real moral panic), but it has two things going for it:

1) There are plenty of internal instances to point the finger at and shout "Nazi!", there are good number of 'alt-lite' commentators such as Stefan Molyneux, Mike Cernovitch, Lauren Southern, moving into Rebel media and Crowder territory, and even Milo, Jordan Peterson and Sargon get this broad brush .
The actual Alt-Right, from Spencer, Greg Johnson, Jared Taylor to our own Millennial Woes and a few other European.
Then there are Patriots, Confederacy enthusiasts, Free speech advocates and just plain Trump fans. Plenty of finger-pointing material.

2) If all the above material wears thin or runs dry (which seems unlikely), plain Trump hysteria will breathe life back into it all again, it's a magic ingredient that doesn't seem to have peaked at all yet.


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