The Battle For The Centre.

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:50 pm

C_D wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:39 am


I'm wondering if this guy opposite Sargon is AD from RI. It's cringe-making stuff, really.
I've been following the leadup to, and fallout from, Mythcon pretty closely and want to give Thomas a tentative pass (I want to give everyone a pass though).

**The leadup was fraught with a fairly tight-knit (and obsessive) group of Sargon's opponents trying very hard to deplatform Sargon, plus Armoured Skeptic and Shoe-on-Head, who are tangentally connected with him (the old 'guilt by association' trick). When the organisers stood firm they successfully persuaded some speakers to pull out, and made such a stink that the organisers felt they had to spend a substantial amount of cash on extra security. This security issue is the main lever that SJW's and antifa use to pressure event organisers and venues, to their credit, the organisers didn't back down to this.**

I see Thomas as being pulled two ways (that 'tension' I mentioned in a different thread), and this comes out in his over-emoting, I think it is to his credit that he stays the course here, or that he turned up at all, and the 'debate' even settles down to something that looks almost promising at times. Sargon has mentioned several times in follow up videos that this is what he wanted too.
Afterwards, Thomas' own community have been raking him over the coals for various reasons too, but mostly they are just upset that the Mythcon event took place in spite of their efforts. This mistreatment of their own is one of the main sources of SJW's becoming redpilled, which is why I would go easy on Thomas.

Going back to the title of this thread, at present I see Sargon as a good proponent of that 'centre ground'. not necessarily because his political views are central (whatever that means), but because he stands pretty firm and looks both ways as fairly as possible.. in the last month or so he has interviewed both Jared Taylor (Alt-Right 'race realist') and Contrapoints above. Unfortunately, there aren't many Lefties who will debate, so Contrapoints is a bit of a loner, I suppose we can add Thomas to that list, especially if he takes up Sargon's invitation to have an online discussion.


ETA**Sargon recounts most of this at the start of the video I notice, so this paragraph is a bit redundant.

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:10 pm

jakell wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:50 pm
...This mistreatment of their own is one of the main sources of SJW's becoming redpilled, which is why I would go easy on Thomas....
Actually, this is more of an opinion than a known statistic. Let's say that this mistreatment is a large cause of discontent that can't easily be resolved, hence tension. Before actually questioning personal beliefs and behaviour other options are:

1) To double down and increase ones efforts to find nazis/mysogynicsts/homophobes etc in the outside world and to be seen opposing them. If these aren't to be found then the nearest thing will often suffice (guilt by association etc).

2) To denounce fellow travelers as saying/relaying questionable things or of not being sufficiently anti-something.

3) To plead guilty, wear sackcloth and ashes, do penance and promise to try harder.
.
.
.
.
4) Find a less shrill crowd and more tolerant environments.


------------------------------------------------------

ETA: A fairly low energy (you don't need to leave your computer) but high payoff example of no 1.:



It's perfectly credible though, Stefan's overreaching here.

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:13 am

Figures who try to present a perspective from that elusive centre, but still try to engage with polarising situations, seem few in number. This isn't surprising as it is natural to avoid fraught situations for reasons of personal safety, but also it's easier to retain objectivity from a distance and for some, self-image is tied up with that objectivity.

Tim Pool is one who I would class as the above. It seems to me that one of antifa's objectives is to polarise situations so that that central position is very hard to obtain (or to encourage folks to stay away if they wish to sit there), so it's no surpise that they feel extremely resentful towards Tim Pool and here we see it arise in threats of violence and intimidation. Tim is fairly well known but plenty of footage shows fairly vanilla individuals also being harassed and targeted, often with little retaliation, it that seems that antifa's goal is to incite physical confrontation, hence they persevere with this.

This video at first seemed a bit of a funny mixture, but now I view it as Tim's attempt not to take the antifa route of dwelling too centrally on violence and incitement in order to foment it. The point where the title is addressed comes at 5:30 after some local interest and commentary not related to the Spencer situation:



Whether or not Tim consciously does this, I think it is instructive to try to place polarising and emotive stuff within the less dramatic framework of 'life going on' and while he does this I will continue to regard him as more of a journalist than an activist (a useful distinction that Sargon identified). This won't please those who seek only drama, something the internet seems to encourage.

dusty
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by dusty » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:34 am

Greetings comrades,

I've been thinking...

As anti-fascists (sic) are we using the best tactics?

We've tried no platforming. But our disruption and endless, repetitive chanting seems to turn the public against us. Somehow our behavior makes Richard Spencer and pals seem reasonable by comparison. What's up with that?

I've tried demonstrating to members of the public the necessity of abolishing the white race but these reactionary pigs respond by actively adopting white identity! Relax, white people! We're just abolishing a concept by any means necessary, like the bourgeoisie! ;)

How do we stem the tide of fascism. Any suggestions? I'm all out of ideas.

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:13 pm

It seems to me that antifa (and antifa-lite) are already employing several approaches, only one of which is no-platforming and the accompanying flashpoints that arise when it when it doesn't work or is resisted. The flashpoints tend to be where the optics are (which is why a high-quality image merchant such as Tim Pool is frowned upon), but I think there is more going on.

Without naming the beast we could try to focus on what might be behind antifa, and that this is undoubtedly playing the long-game and, as I suspect Spencer has learned, the best way to counter a long-game is with another long-game.

So it's about strategy as well as tactics, so when one set of tactics isn't working, we keep it up (but lower key) for appearance' sake, but work on different angles too and, as we are talking about disruption rather than building something, almost anything will work, it's an easy side to adopt.
Here's a wild idea. After such an event as Charlottesville, block a public highway for a length of time with a banner suggesting/promising nationwide antifa led disruption on November 4th, kick this idea around in online spaces for some time until it feeds fevered imaginations on both sides, using such phrases as Civil War. Leave it (maybe a little nudge here and there) to see what happens.
Many more options for chaos are available.


dusty
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by dusty » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:40 pm

From J. Sakai*, a fave of AD, whose ideas are very influential on the racist campus left:
Every nation and people has its own contribution to make... this is true for all of us, and obviously for Euro-Amerikans as well. But this is another discussion, one that can only really take place in the context of breaking up the US empire and ending the US
*His book Settlers is very popular among Woke Twitter types. Sakai's theory is essentially that white people cannot be part of the proletariat and its struggle, regardless of their economic/social status they are oppressors and therefore the enemy.

From A. Dugin, a boogeyman of AD, whose ideas are very influential on the Alt-Right + European New Right:
In due course, on the global level of the process of building the New Planetary Empire, the ultimate ‘sacrificial lamb’ will be precisely USA, and the undermining of its power (all down to total demolition of that geopolitical construction) will be methodically and uncompromisingly enacted by all participants in the New Empire. The Eurasian project (…) presupposes Eurasian expansion into South and Central Americas in order to release them from the influence of the North (…), as well as inciting all kinds of instability and separatism inside the USA borders (the forces of Afro-American racists could be relied upon in this respect). The ancient Roman formula ‘Carthage must be destroyed’ will become the absolute slogan of the Eurasian Empire because it encompasses the essence of the geopolitical planetary strategy of a continent that is awakening to its mission.
Questions:

1. The crucial difference between the authoritarian left and right, and socialism and fascism generally, is merely a matter of branding?
2. After America is destroyed, what fills the vacuum?

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:33 pm

Remaining on the current level of play concerning antifa and the Alt Right, the latter seem to be positioning themselves purely in the realm of identity politics and look set to remain there as its working for them. This means they are unlikely to get bogged down in discussions concerning Political Science, which the Left (Marxists specifically) will excel at.

This would be another tactic that the Left could employ, but they have a way to go first as it means doing a complete about-face and start having a dialogue. There are some small rumblings of those who consider themselves to be 'anti-fascist' actually starting to interact with Alt-Right ideas (only noticeable due to the complete absence of this up till now), but this will be an enormous ship to turn around, possibly it will only be conducted through back channels, if at all.

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:57 pm

Following on from the Tim Pool video 5 posts up, it looks like things are heating up for him:



He's only a little guy and was pretty brave to stand his ground but he doesn't seem far from getting hurt. Possibly this crowd are a bit subdued due to being mainly youngish students (with an older agitator it seems) and it is indoors, outdoor situations allow for hit and run attacks and the presence of more 'marginal' individuals

It will be plain to most people that Tim is a centrist sort of guy (I'm going to try to bring this thread back to more central, even vanilla, issues at some point), but I expect faint condemnation at best from many of those who consider themselves to be Liberal if he is hurt,

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:17 am

A follow up to the above video here with more depth and detail. Tim seems to feel that the videos here have become too much about him (but that's a development is worth reporting on IMO), and tries to get some journalism in too.

Most of the stuff going on is fairly predictable by now, including fairly blatant and falsifiable misrepresentation going on (this is Cernovitch, not Spencer or worse) but what jumps out at me here is a newish behaviour in the crowd. The mindless chanting is a regular feature by now but here we have something with more depth which I find to be more creepy, and that is the call and response stuff that actually has content, sometimes fairly complex content.. complex as it may be I reckon the crowd will repeat whatever is said with barely a second thought. This can be viewed lightly, as most things can, but a level of expectation and openness has been built up in these people that works on deeper levels of consciousness to forge a bridge between cognition and emotion (which conveniently dampens critical thinking), a combination that can be more powerful than each is separately.
To sum up.. the chanting works on the social/emotional level with only a slight nod towards cognition, the call and response moves this deeper towards an individual/'cognitive' level, also note that these affirmations can be scripted, they aren't brief 'throwaways' like the chants.
(seen from 2:20 onwards but with some indoor ie.. churchy stuff later and in the previous video)


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