The Battle For The Centre.

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:50 pm

C_D wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:39 am


I'm wondering if this guy opposite Sargon is AD from RI. It's cringe-making stuff, really.
I've been following the leadup to, and fallout from, Mythcon pretty closely and want to give Thomas a tentative pass (I want to give everyone a pass though).

**The leadup was fraught with a fairly tight-knit (and obsessive) group of Sargon's opponents trying very hard to deplatform Sargon, plus Armoured Skeptic and Shoe-on-Head, who are tangentally connected with him (the old 'guilt by association' trick). When the organisers stood firm they successfully persuaded some speakers to pull out, and made such a stink that the organisers felt they had to spend a substantial amount of cash on extra security. This security issue is the main lever that SJW's and antifa use to pressure event organisers and venues, to their credit, the organisers didn't back down to this.**

I see Thomas as being pulled two ways (that 'tension' I mentioned in a different thread), and this comes out in his over-emoting, I think it is to his credit that he stays the course here, or that he turned up at all, and the 'debate' even settles down to something that looks almost promising at times. Sargon has mentioned several times in follow up videos that this is what he wanted too.
Afterwards, Thomas' own community have been raking him over the coals for various reasons too, but mostly they are just upset that the Mythcon event took place in spite of their efforts. This mistreatment of their own is one of the main sources of SJW's becoming redpilled, which is why I would go easy on Thomas.

Going back to the title of this thread, at present I see Sargon as a good proponent of that 'centre ground'. not necessarily because his political views are central (whatever that means), but because he stands pretty firm and looks both ways as fairly as possible.. in the last month or so he has interviewed both Jared Taylor (Alt-Right 'race realist') and Contrapoints above. Unfortunately, there aren't many Lefties who will debate, so Contrapoints is a bit of a loner, I suppose we can add Thomas to that list, especially if he takes up Sargon's invitation to have an online discussion.


ETA**Sargon recounts most of this at the start of the video I notice, so this paragraph is a bit redundant.

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jakell
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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:10 pm

jakell wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:50 pm
...This mistreatment of their own is one of the main sources of SJW's becoming redpilled, which is why I would go easy on Thomas....
Actually, this is more of an opinion than a known statistic. Let's say that this mistreatment is a large cause of discontent that can't easily be resolved, hence tension. Before actually questioning personal beliefs and behaviour other options are:

1) To double down and increase ones efforts to find nazis/mysogynicsts/homophobes etc in the outside world and to be seen opposing them. If these aren't to be found then the nearest thing will often suffice (guilt by association etc).

2) To denounce fellow travelers as saying/relaying questionable things or of not being sufficiently anti-something.

3) To plead guilty, wear sackcloth and ashes, do penance and promise to try harder.
.
.
.
.
4) Find a less shrill crowd and more tolerant environments.


------------------------------------------------------

ETA: A fairly low energy (you don't need to leave your computer) but high payoff example of no 1.:



It's perfectly credible though, Stefan's overreaching here.

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:13 am

Figures who try to present a perspective from that elusive centre, but still try to engage with polarising situations, seem few in number. This isn't surprising as it is natural to avoid fraught situations for reasons of personal safety, but also it's easier to retain objectivity from a distance and for some, self-image is tied up with that objectivity.

Tim Pool is one who I would class as the above. It seems to me that one of antifa's objectives is to polarise situations so that that central position is very hard to obtain (or to encourage folks to stay away if they wish to sit there), so it's no surpise that they feel extremely resentful towards Tim Pool and here we see it arise in threats of violence and intimidation. Tim is fairly well known but plenty of footage shows fairly vanilla individuals also being harassed and targeted, often with little retaliation, it that seems that antifa's goal is to incite physical confrontation, hence they persevere with this.

This video at first seemed a bit of a funny mixture, but now I view it as Tim's attempt not to take the antifa route of dwelling too centrally on violence and incitement in order to foment it. The point where the title is addressed comes at 5:30 after some local interest and commentary not related to the Spencer situation:



Whether or not Tim consciously does this, I think it is instructive to try to place polarising and emotive stuff within the less dramatic framework of 'life going on' and while he does this I will continue to regard him as more of a journalist than an activist (a useful distinction that Sargon identified). This won't please those who seek only drama, something the internet seems to encourage.

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by dusty » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:34 am

Greetings comrades,

I've been thinking...

As anti-fascists (sic) are we using the best tactics?

We've tried no platforming. But our disruption and endless, repetitive chanting seems to turn the public against us. Somehow our behavior makes Richard Spencer and pals seem reasonable by comparison. What's up with that?

I've tried demonstrating to members of the public the necessity of abolishing the white race but these reactionary pigs respond by actively adopting white identity! Relax, white people! We're just abolishing a concept by any means necessary, like the bourgeoisie! ;)

How do we stem the tide of fascism. Any suggestions? I'm all out of ideas.

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:13 pm

It seems to me that antifa (and antifa-lite) are already employing several approaches, only one of which is no-platforming and the accompanying flashpoints that arise when it when it doesn't work or is resisted. The flashpoints tend to be where the optics are (which is why a high-quality image merchant such as Tim Pool is frowned upon), but I think there is more going on.

Without naming the beast we could try to focus on what might be behind antifa, and that this is undoubtedly playing the long-game and, as I suspect Spencer has learned, the best way to counter a long-game is with another long-game.

So it's about strategy as well as tactics, so when one set of tactics isn't working, we keep it up (but lower key) for appearance' sake, but work on different angles too and, as we are talking about disruption rather than building something, almost anything will work, it's an easy side to adopt.
Here's a wild idea. After such an event as Charlottesville, block a public highway for a length of time with a banner suggesting/promising nationwide antifa led disruption on November 4th, kick this idea around in online spaces for some time until it feeds fevered imaginations on both sides, using such phrases as Civil War. Leave it (maybe a little nudge here and there) to see what happens.
Many more options for chaos are available.


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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by dusty » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:40 pm

From J. Sakai*, a fave of AD, whose ideas are very influential on the racist campus left:
Every nation and people has its own contribution to make... this is true for all of us, and obviously for Euro-Amerikans as well. But this is another discussion, one that can only really take place in the context of breaking up the US empire and ending the US
*His book Settlers is very popular among Woke Twitter types. Sakai's theory is essentially that white people cannot be part of the proletariat and its struggle, regardless of their economic/social status they are oppressors and therefore the enemy.

From A. Dugin, a boogeyman of AD, whose ideas are very influential on the Alt-Right + European New Right:
In due course, on the global level of the process of building the New Planetary Empire, the ultimate ‘sacrificial lamb’ will be precisely USA, and the undermining of its power (all down to total demolition of that geopolitical construction) will be methodically and uncompromisingly enacted by all participants in the New Empire. The Eurasian project (…) presupposes Eurasian expansion into South and Central Americas in order to release them from the influence of the North (…), as well as inciting all kinds of instability and separatism inside the USA borders (the forces of Afro-American racists could be relied upon in this respect). The ancient Roman formula ‘Carthage must be destroyed’ will become the absolute slogan of the Eurasian Empire because it encompasses the essence of the geopolitical planetary strategy of a continent that is awakening to its mission.
Questions:

1. The crucial difference between the authoritarian left and right, and socialism and fascism generally, is merely a matter of branding?
2. After America is destroyed, what fills the vacuum?

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:33 pm

Remaining on the current level of play concerning antifa and the Alt Right, the latter seem to be positioning themselves purely in the realm of identity politics and look set to remain there as its working for them. This means they are unlikely to get bogged down in discussions concerning Political Science, which the Left (Marxists specifically) will excel at.

This would be another tactic that the Left could employ, but they have a way to go first as it means doing a complete about-face and start having a dialogue. There are some small rumblings of those who consider themselves to be 'anti-fascist' actually starting to interact with Alt-Right ideas (only noticeable due to the complete absence of this up till now), but this will be an enormous ship to turn around, possibly it will only be conducted through back channels, if at all.

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:57 pm

Following on from the Tim Pool video 5 posts up, it looks like things are heating up for him:



He's only a little guy and was pretty brave to stand his ground but he doesn't seem far from getting hurt. Possibly this crowd are a bit subdued due to being mainly youngish students (with an older agitator it seems) and it is indoors, outdoor situations allow for hit and run attacks and the presence of more 'marginal' individuals

It will be plain to most people that Tim is a centrist sort of guy (I'm going to try to bring this thread back to more central, even vanilla, issues at some point), but I expect faint condemnation at best from many of those who consider themselves to be Liberal if he is hurt,

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:17 am

A follow up to the above video here with more depth and detail. Tim seems to feel that the videos here have become too much about him (but that's a development is worth reporting on IMO), and tries to get some journalism in too.

Most of the stuff going on is fairly predictable by now, including fairly blatant and falsifiable misrepresentation going on (this is Cernovitch, not Spencer or worse) but what jumps out at me here is a newish behaviour in the crowd. The mindless chanting is a regular feature by now but here we have something with more depth which I find to be more creepy, and that is the call and response stuff that actually has content, sometimes fairly complex content.. complex as it may be I reckon the crowd will repeat whatever is said with barely a second thought. This can be viewed lightly, as most things can, but a level of expectation and openness has been built up in these people that works on deeper levels of consciousness to forge a bridge between cognition and emotion (which conveniently dampens critical thinking), a combination that can be more powerful than each is separately.
To sum up.. the chanting works on the social/emotional level with only a slight nod towards cognition, the call and response moves this deeper towards an individual/'cognitive' level, also note that these affirmations can be scripted, they aren't brief 'throwaways' like the chants.
(seen from 2:20 onwards but with some indoor ie.. churchy stuff later and in the previous video)


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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:54 pm

Ever since I started this thread with the following graphic I have meant to pick up on that central region, especially the mysterious 'Skeptic Community'.


|----Neo-Nazis
|----
|--- Alt-Right (Broader than is commonly assumed
|---
|--- Alt-lite (deserves its own topic)
|---
|--- THE ELUSIVE CENTRE
|---
|--- The 'Skeptic Community'
|---
|--- SJW's
|---
|--- Hard Left, eg Antifa and associated cults such as BAMN
|---
|--- ???!!!



It's been difficult to say much that is definitive there because they have been in flux ever since I started this thread. suffice it to say that I regarded them as the microscopic fulcrum that some of the larger concerns here might turn upon, and I think I was correct in some sense. Around the time of Vidcon 2107 the Skeptics seemed to become a pretty identifiable group after several met up in real life. Their major successes have been mostly around debunking the SJW phenomenon which seems a 'shooting fish in a barrel' sort of thing now but earlier on it was more of an uphill struggle as SJW's were perceived to be regular but emotional folks who's hearts were in the right place.

This has changed though and I reckon it's accurate to say the Skeptics are no more. Their downfall seemed to have occurred when they moved from commentary to activism, and the activism in question was taking on the Alt Right, specifically on their pretty central theme of 'race realism'. A poorly presented and researched video by youtuber 'Rage After Storm' fell into their lap and they developed some confidence in debunking this, it didn't stop at debunking though and a Youtuber called 'Kraut and Tea' started a crusade which started with him driving 'Rage' from Youtube and resulted in him forming a team of 'scientists' on a private server that also collated private information for doxxing purposes.
Kraut produced several half-decent (IMO) debunking videos which resulted in some in-depth debates on the subject, so in this respect there was a positive. Unfortunately the personal information aspect in conjunction with him combining forces with some disreputable characters made for his own personal downfall. He has now left Youtube also, and he had a large channel with almost 200,000 subscribers and plenty of good videos. The drama here has metastasized considerably and one could now consider the 'Skeptic Community' to be non-functional.



I was going to leave things there but, very recently, Sargon of Akkad has made an unexpected move that means there is possibly a rough replacement that will orbit that 'Elusive Centre'. His original anouncement of this was a bit pompous and cringey IMO, but I still think the sentiment and implementation are worthy of attention. He has declared his intention to move towards activism and expressed the need for his advocacy for 'Classic English Liberalism' to have an name, and he's tentatively come up with the term 'Liberalist'. Plenty of ridicule is being heaped upon him but he has shown himself to be quite resourceful and resilient in the past, so I think this is worth keeping an eye on. This livestream is a bit more informative than the initial announcement:


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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by dusty » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:40 pm

Over the Christmas period I delved a little into the vlogosphere and didn't find much worth engaging, but Sargon for all his faults still provides a valuable service - highlighting recent leftist insanity and critiquing the alt right (with varying levels of success).

His conversation with "Millennial Woes" exposed MW to be an utter fool imo. A dangerous fool at that. Follow alt-right thinking to its conclusion in the real world and the results would be very ugly indeed. MW in one recent conversation talks about the possibility of closing UK borders, in order to keep Brits inside! Lest new university graduates take their talents elsewhere. "Is it harsh? Sure, but think of your race!!!"

At one point the alt-right was still an amorphous entity but it's now hardened into a smaller, more extremist and fanatical form - white nationalism with the belief that racial oblivion is imminent, the result of scheming and trickery by evil personified: The Jew (bracket bracket bracket).

One of Sargon's weaker moments in his conversation with Millennial Woes was when he tried to argue against MW's claim that foreigners often desire to move to white countries (of course they do). Sargon gave the example of Soviet Russia as proof that white people can create awful societies that no-one in their right mind would move to (of course they can). MW sighed, claiming that Soviet Russia wasn't really "white" because it was founded on "non-white" ideological principles (insinuating that Communism is a Jewish conspiracy and as all alt-righters know... Jews aren't white!*). Sargon should've pressed MW on this point but he let it slide, even though that absurd claim is the key to unraveling the whole white nationalist worldview.

*Ask an alt-righter if Ben Shapiro is a white man. They'll say no. :lol:

The Sargonite "Liberalist" worldview also contains a tremendous flaw rooted in the race question. On the left and the right, the cat is out of the bag. Ignoring or dismissing race from the center is no longer an option. So long as they continue doing this, the alt-right will attack this vulnerability. Especially when polls at Pew Research and elsewhere show that the Classical Liberalism that Sargon and pals value is in some sense uniquely European, non-whites holding less libertarian views when it comes to the sanctity of free speech and the value of open debate.

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:17 pm

I'm pleased that my rounding off of the Skeptics Saga here wasn't in vein, it's rather dull stuff when gone into in detail and I'm glad to draw a line under it.

I agree with "Sargon for all his faults still provides a valuable service...", and I've referred to him before as an 'information cruncher', ie someone who does the grunt work that can make a lesser person's eyes glaze over. You're right to mention "faults" too and his major one seems to with the Alt Right, he tends to get a little bit triggered and lose focus whenever talking to one of them, the one that stood out to me with MW this 'Milleniyule' was in massively belabouring his notion of the alt right adopting SJW tactics to achieve their ends. This triggering became much more stark during a recent debate on an Andy Warski livestream where he was talking with Richard Spencer, many people , his own 'fans ' included feel he did badly at this. It was a widely watched debate too, it was no 1 trending on Youtube for a while



Another round with Spencer on the same show is promised in the near future. It's worth mentioning that Warski's format here is actually a product of the Skeptic drama and, though he admits that he is no deep thinker, seems to have an ability of bringing these characters together and making it work where other 'debates' would fail.
Despite Sargon's rather po-faced intro to his 'liberalist' project (don't know if you viewed that), I applaud his attempt to attempt activism and create a recognisable and hopefully defensible position around the centre. It leaves this thread with something to focus on if nothing else

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by C_D » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:35 pm



I have to say, I am rather heartened by the comments. The mindset of the Channel 4 attack dog is frightening.

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:36 pm

This was a great interview and one of my favourite parts was at 25:10 where she asks him why the actions of Peterson's 'trans-activist' opponents are in any way comparable to Maoist China.

He says "no problem" and then goes on to give a beautifully succinct and non-waffly response that almost anyone could understand. Even though this doesn't give her pause (that's at another point) she simply retorts "you're just trying to provoke aren't you?" (his answer is respectful and in no way provocative). she then goes on to compare him to the Alt Right etc etc.
Even though she had been doing badly, it was at this point she dropped any pretence of intellectual honesty and might have well thumbed her nose at him and blown a raspberry.

The comments favourable to Peterson seem across the board on Youtube, there's a few versions, including Sargon's breakdown. "So You're Saying" is the funniest IMO. I suspect that mainstream tolerance for feminism as expressed by the interviewer here is waning, if there is an internal message board at channel 4, like a newspaper would have then it would be a good indicator of this as Youtube seems to mostly be anti SJW.

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by C_D » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:05 am

I suspect that mainstream tolerance for feminism as expressed by the interviewer here is waning
Agreed. If you mean 'mainstream' as 'normal people'.

Channel 4 put her in that chair not only as their preferred interviewer to press the message home, but also as an exemplar of the movement. The control system that runs Channel 4 views her as leading edge, able to carry the 'correct' message.

Which begs the questions -

Just how out of touch are the people at the top of Channel 4 news?

or

Just how out of touch are we?

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:57 am

C_D wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:05 am
jakell wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:36 pm
I suspect that mainstream tolerance for feminism as expressed by the interviewer here is waning,
Agreed. If you mean 'mainstream' as 'normal people'.

Channel 4 put her in that chair not only as their preferred interviewer to press the message home, but also as an exemplar of the movement. The control system that runs Channel 4 views her as leading edge, able to carry the 'correct' message.

Which begs the questions -

Just how out of touch are the people at the top of Channel 4 news?

or

Just how out of touch are we?
I do, but I don't expect this to reveal itself too strongly just yet, people are scared of the PC juggernaut and how it has entrenched itself all around them. This change might be inferred by a lack of people rushing to defend Cathy Newman or echo her 'thoughts' ("so you're saying..?"), whereas several years ago they would have done.

Youtube is already a pretty redpilled place, so I expect comments sections there to reflect this, it would be interesting to see a more balanced section of comments such as we see for newspaper articles.
I've seen some remarks about how Peterson's book sales have soared (he came to the UK to mainly promote his book) as well as him getting about 20,000 new Youtube subscribers following this interview. He seems to have won in every arena, not just the direct one in the video.

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by C_D » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:35 pm

...it would be interesting to see a more balanced section of comments such as we see for newspaper articles.
A cynic may view it as convenient, but these 'controversial' subjects regularly have the comments disabled by msm. Especially the BBC. The given reason? - to stop the spread of hatespeech (which conveniently covers an extremely broad range of dissention - a spectrum from Ultra-Nationalism all the way across to academics who still like to be able to question things).

But this disabling may also mask the lack of actual real-world support for these ideas.

Maybe they feel that they don't have enough extremists on side yet. So they keep plugging it, until they do. Recently, it seems to be failing.

But they keep trying http://dailycaller.com/2018/01/19/googl ... te-speech/

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by C_D » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:57 pm

I feel I should make my position clear - I have no problem with peoples rights. I have no problem with anyone doing anything they want as long as it doesn't intentionally hurt or impact someone else negatively. But what I do have a problem with is this; inserting power plays into well-intentioned narratives that ultimately advance an unfair advantage to a specific group of people that already have a massive advantage - in short, to compound their power further. This leads to a group of Untouchables with the power of life and death over anyone who isn't one of their own.
Dangerous.

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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by C_D » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:39 pm

Two differing stories - and dependant upon which belief your system is based, either great! or ridiculous! Take your pick.




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Re: The Battle For The Centre.

Post by jakell » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:25 pm

A slightly creepy observation about the start of Peterson's Channel 4 interview.



This is probably not uncommon with professional interviewers, but Peterson's objective relating of it makes it look starker to me. If Peterson , as a clinical psychologist, finds this remarkable then it was probably quite marked.

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