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Institutionalized or early normalization of incest/pedophilia-

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:30 pm
by gods+lonely=man
Institutionalized or early normalization of incest/pedophilia-
I came across this,one point i find interesting is that the author is correct in stating that although god forbids incest latter on,it forbids the son or daughter from being the perpetrator of the act.Its structured in a way so that its ok for a parent to exercise authority of the act but not the child. Implying that its the adult/parent that is the victim and the son/daughter is always the seducer.

Also the fact that Lot offers up his ''virginal'' daughters to a crowd to be gang raped shows the archaic perceptions of ownership of family that has not changed among some cultures.

Revisiting the lot of the first incestuous family: the biblical origins of shifting the blame on to female family members

Who seduced whom in the biblical incest story of Lot and his daughters? The answer reveals an ancient cover-up ploy that is in use to this day

Incest that involves the sexual abuse of a child by an adult family member is sadly far from rare. Exact figures elude researchers, but studies suggest that the incidence of incestuous child abuse is far too common in Western societies.1-5 “It is incest itself—and not the absence of incest—that has been universal... in most places at most times.”5

Perhaps the first report of father-daughter incest appears in the Bible in the book of Genesis 19. The seducer this time, however, is not the father, Lot, whose wife had crystallised into a pillar of salt, but rather the daughters, who conspire to extract their father's seed. Their unconventional manoeuvre, today it would be labelled “drug rape,” is implicitly and partially excused by the Bible by their desire to fulfil the first divine/evolutionary decree, procreation: “Our father is old and there is no man to lie with us as is the way all over the earth” (Genesis 19, 31). Capitalising on his fondness for wine, “they got their father to drink wine on that night, and the elder one came, and lay with her father, and he knew nothing of her lying down or her rising up.” The following night the scene repeats itself, this time with the younger sister, while Lot remains in his inebriated ignorant stupor. Both liaisons resulted in pregnancies. “And the older one gave birth to a boy, and she named him Moab, he is the father of the Moabites of this day. And the younger also gave birth to a boy, and she named him Ben Ami, he is the father of the Ammonites of this day” (Genesis 19, 37-38).​37-38).

Figure 1
Lot and his daughters by Hendrik Goltzius
According to Deuteronomy (23, 4-7) the Israelites were banned from contact with these two nations: “A Moabite and an Ammonite shall not join the community of God, even a tenth generation removed shall not join the community of God forever more.” I propose that it is this ban that explains the incorporation of the myth of Lot and his incestuous daughters in the Hebrew Bible. According to biblical research, the myths about Lot in Genesis and the Book of Deuteronomy were written after 600 bc, long after the events to which they refer (Lot, before 1700 bc, and Deuteronomy, before 1250 bc).6 The Israelite monotheistic biblical writers were concerned with the threat from the idol-worshipping neighbours, the Moabites and Ammonites, who were the Israelites' closest kin by intermarriage and language. I suggest that these writers incorporated the myth of Lot into the Biblical text to discredit the idol worshippers. Through this carefully crafted plot, the biblical narrators confirmed the ethnic proximity of these nations to the people of Israel but at the same time cast an ancient blot of shame on their origins.

While the biblical role of the story of Lot has a plausible explanation, what explains the assignment of roles within the incest myth? How is it that father-daughter incest is universally perpetrated by the father, while in Genesis the roles are reversed?

In my view, some painters, such as Dürer (1555), Francesco (1600-46), and most strikingly Goltzius (1558-1617), suggest that the roles were not reversed, and that it was Lot who abused his daughters. In Goltzius' painting, the naked Lot is not in a deep alcoholic daze but is fully coherent and cunningly sizing up his prey, a far cry from “and he knew nothing of her lying down or her rising up” repeated after each daughter lies with him. In this painting, alcohol is not dulling his senses but probably disinhibiting his frontal lobes, which is precisely what happens to many abusive fathers when they drink.

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Not adding up
Re-reading Genesis 19, this time with the hypothesis of Lot as the abusive father, unmasks certain inconsistencies in the plot and reveals additional clues to support his culpability. For instance, the daughters' rationalisation for their unusual, desperate action: “Our father is old, and there is no man in the land... let us have our father drink wine and lie with him,” may hold a lot of wine but does not hold much water. There were plenty of men in the land, specifically in the nearby town of Tzo'ar to which Lot had insisted on going after the Sodom disaster and from which he was later driven away. And about a day's walk away were the tents of the tribe of Lot's illustrious uncle, Abraham, who was observing the calamitous seismic activity of the destruction of Sodom from the hills surrounding the valley. And, one could argue that when Lot's daughters plotted to “make our father drunk with wine” they probably already had a fair idea of how he behaved when drunk and could count on the predictable, sexually explosive concoction of Lot mixed with alcohol. Also unlikely is the story of the double instant impregnation, with only one nightly contact for impregnating each daughter. Usually, sexual activity has to be repeated to achieve pregnancy, sometimes over many cycles. So it's much more likely that these pregnancies were the result of repeated incestuous activity.

That incest is usually repeated is supported by modern research. Once he starts, the incestuous perpetrator often continues for years. As the daughter reaches an age when she is able to resist or flee, the activity may be repeated with a younger sister. Though the profiles of incestuous families may vary, the father-perpetrator is typically an immature individual with low self esteem, while the wife-mother is depressed, helpless, or otherwise emotionally absent. The father often uses alcohol to allay his inhibitions before molesting his daughters. Herman explains why girls will allow the sexual relationship to continue to prevent family disunity.7 She also describes the terrible psychological price paid for such a breach of boundaries.

A careful read of the earlier history of Lot and his family suddenly fits this modern family dynamics grid. In the chapters preceding the destruction of Sodom, Lot is portrayed as the no-good nephew of Abraham. He causes his uncle so much grief that the patriarch demands to part ways: “Pray part from me. If to the left, then I to the right, if to the right, then I to the left” (Genesis 13, 9). Lot chooses Sodom as his residence, a town infamous for its depraved sexual practices. Early in chapter 19, we get direct evidence of Lot's perverse relationship with his daughters. After he invites to his house two strangers, who are actually the angels of God in disguise, his townsmen surround the house, demanding to exercise their specialty perversion and “sodomise” his guests. Lot steps outside the door and attempts to appease the crazed mob: “Now pray, I have two daughters who have never known a man, pray, let me bring them out to you, and you may deal with them as you like it” (19, 8). Even in the most far-reaching rules of hospitality, practised by the so called “primitive cultures,” there is no precedent for voluntarily submitting one's daughters to gang rape.

As befitting the dynamics of an incestuous family, Lot's wife is conspicuously missing from the scene. She is mentioned only when the family flees the smoking ruined city, and she turns into a pillar of salt. Rather than the biblical misogynist view that attributes her fate to female curiosity, I see this frozen brackish crystal as a metaphor for a mother who is frozen in her salty tears. Her older daughters have just perished in the disaster, while her younger ones are left exposed to the ongoing abuse of their drunkard of a father. Was she depressed before the catastrophe? Did she develop a paralysing post-traumatic dissociation or depression? Did she kill herself, knowing she was helpless to stop the molestation of her daughters?

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Transference of blame
If it was Lot who abused his daughters, why not openly place the responsibility of the incest where it belongs rather than pinning the blame on his daughters? Sadly, the cover up ploy, which the ancient biblical narrators choose, is as familiar as the act of incest itself. Abusive men have been shamelessly mouthing excuses throughout the ages. “It wasn't my fault; it was she who seduced me, walking around the house like that. Besides, I didn't do it, I couldn't have, I was too drunk.” Lot may be a notorious villain and a sordid weakling, but he is still the nephew of the patriarch, who was the progenitor of the nation, and hence the noble name and family honour must be preserved. The way out of this dilemma is to shift the blame on to the women. Seduction, according to the Bible, is in their nature anyway (see under the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden, where Eve is blamed for seducing Adam to commit the original sin).

In patriarchal societies the practice of diverting responsibility for and hushing up incest is encoded in the Bible in the story of Lot and his daughters. Interestingly, when one examines the detailed list of forbidden incestuous relationships in the Bible, and there are many, father-daughter incest is not explicitly stated. An explicit condemnation of this practice would have been helpful to many women, such as a friend of mine, whose father abused her while whispering in her ear that “the Bible itself does not condemn this sort of thing.” Freud, whose observations led him to realise the serious impact incest had on the minds of molested girls, bowed under severe pressure, some say, and transferred incest from social reality to the realm of the wishes and fantasies of Viennese damsels.

The tradition of father-daughter incest and blaming the girls is very much alive, not only in countries with patriarchy sanctioned by religion. Even in Western societies, proponents of false memory syndrome claim that victims' memories of incest are unreliable or even inserted by therapists or disgruntled spouses. These claims carry on the ancient tradition of shifting the blame away from the male perpetrator and away from the recognition that while not all recovered memories of incest are accurate most, painfully, are.

Meir General Hospital and Shalvatah Psychiatric Center, Kfar Saba 44281, Israel
Correspondence to: I Kutz li.ten.310@ztuki

Re: Institutionalized or early normalization of incest/pedophilia-

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:13 pm
by C_D

It's a bit scary how the pedophile justifies sex with children based on 'peer reviewed studies', over and above the actual trauma recounted by child sexual abuse victims.

Re: Institutionalized or early normalization of incest/pedophilia-

Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:55 am
by gods+lonely=man
Wow,this is so fucked...I can't even begin to talk about this video.It really opens my eyes to how these people justify such things.I wonder if this had anything to do with why the PTB tried Dankula for hate speech.I only wished that Dankula had a more force full rebuttal.I'm not going to even write a detailed comment about this.I give it up to this Amos guy,pretty brave to defend something so vile and damaging to humanity.The idea that it can be justified cause of studies is in no way relevant.The fact that this Amos can't understand the basic idea of why it is wrong shows how far gone his reasoning is.I have known many people who were molested as children and every single one was damaged in a very real way that lasted long into their adulthood.This guy has no idea what he is talking about.I imagine he was molested and is now trying to deal with his wound by justifying it with this inane but dangerous argument.Knowing the damage done, if someone did this to my child i would consider killing them.By having a law that may prevent the pedophile from doing this act,it is actually keeping these people from being killed by people like me.FUCK this Amos and anyone that goes along with this reasoning.I have a related story but i am going to post it further up.

Re: Institutionalized or early normalization of incest/pedophilia-

Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:59 am
by C_D

I can't shake the feeling that this latest Hollywood Offering is a part of the ongoing normalisation of pedophilia, with extreme violence and 'comedy' thrown in as a primer for the US mindset. Once child sexual abuse has been established as 'understandable' for those that crave it, the next step, according to End-State, is... well, best not to go there, yet.

Fuck, we are going to have to deal with some heavy shit before we emerge through the other side.

Re: Institutionalized or early normalization of incest/pedophilia-

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:25 am
by C_D

A nine-year-old that knows her own mind.
A nine-year-old that earns a living.
A nine-year-old that drives.
A nine-year-old that lives an adult life.

A nine-year-old adult that should be able to enjoy all the fruits that adulthood brings.

All of them.

It comes not through the front door, wide and exposed, but through the back door, quiet and unnoticed.

Re: Institutionalized or early normalization of incest/pedophilia-

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:32 am
by gods+lonely=man
This thought came to mind after seeing this video-
“... just as early industrial capitalism moved the focus of existence from being to having, post-industrial culture has moved that focus from having to appearing.” From G .Debord Society of the Spectacle

This above video is a concise model/example,micro of the macro,as above so below of what sort of psychic cancer is permeating society.What once only happened to adults is now happening to children.I don't just mean the idea of a fabricated self with no interior life but the turning inside out of the ego so to speak,where self is only perceived/recognized through the gaze of the ravenous society en whole.A sickening feedback loop where the self feeds the society and society feeds the self. The role of the once 3rd person awareness of self that was once actually primarily performed by the person themselves with the aid of time,personal reflection and by god(in whatever shape or form,abstract or personal relevant to that person) has now been commandeered through the over documentation of people's lives through social media and invisible programming.In order to exist one must prove it through multiple forms of documentation(written,visual,audio,legal)that concurrently must also be verified and acknowledged by the other en masse.This leads to the degrading of self in the process of achieving a conceptual self that can be ascertained by others in a tangible and digestible way.I use the word digestible as metaphor as this is a form cannibalism and in some ways self cannibalism as a person will do away with any real part of them self by using it to it as energy to feed the new artificial self.A recent example of this process seems to be Jake Paul.
Fake till you make now seems so innocent in light of this sickness.

Re: Institutionalized or early normalization of incest/pedophilia-

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:17 am
by C_D
I don't just mean the idea of a fabricated self with no interior life but the turning inside out of the ego so to speak,where self is only perceived/recognized through the gaze of the ravenous society en whole
Fame is a cruel and unforgiving fate, with heroic highs and unfathomable lows. As you say above, the individual loses the ability to face self-reflection - leaving it instead to an external, infinite set of variables (others) that judge the individual by the mask that the individual presents. The mask presented is forfilling a role that the individual wishes to project (i.e.a sense of what they wish to be ), is 'cool', 'in-the-moment', 'correct' for their audience. As time compresses and 'in vogue' becomes 'utterly disgusting', increasingly the celebrity individual has absolutely no choice but to beg forgiveness for past transgressions and begin to entrain their new identity appropriately. This is becoming increasingly difficult and involves plenty of internalised mental gymnastics, which the individual is poorly trained to carry out - because they are reliant on externalised input of a previously positive nature. Criticism hurts. It's a nightmare catch-22.

This long-term prognosis for this childs mental health is not good, imo. But then, neither is anyone's in showbiz.

I often wonder what society will be like when the cult of celebrity dies.
This leads to the degrading of self in the process of achieving a conceptual self that can be ascertained by others in a tangible and digestible way. I use the word digestible as metaphor as this is a form cannibalism and in some ways self cannibalism as a person will do away with any real part of them self by using it to it as energy to feed the new artificial self
Thanks for posting your thoughts.

Re: Institutionalized or early normalization of incest/pedophilia-

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:29 pm
by C_D